Making this post to continue the discussion from the live room a few of us were having about the option of trading other peoples money. Luis mentions Topstep Trader (TST) and OneUp trader.
There are many Pros and Cons with these companies out there as I have much personal experience with TST. John, you also mentioned a FX program with Apiary.
Interested to hear about these various programs that you guys have heard of and have experience with...any pros and cons you'd like to share.
Personally, I've attempted several combines with TST to no avail even though I've been very very close to hitting the profit targets on multiple occasions but end up breaking one of their rules and being disqualified.
I want to look at these other programs you guys have brought to my attention as well as look at some of the issues ive been running into with TST. More to come in this post but cheers for now.
..........
There are many Pros and Cons with these companies out there as I have much personal experience with TST. John, you also mentioned a FX program with Apiary.
Interested to hear about these various programs that you guys have heard of and have experience with...any pros and cons you'd like to share.
Personally, I've attempted several combines with TST to no avail even though I've been very very close to hitting the profit targets on multiple occasions but end up breaking one of their rules and being disqualified.
I want to look at these other programs you guys have brought to my attention as well as look at some of the issues ive been running into with TST. More to come in this post but cheers for now.
..........
Thanks for starting this thread Travis.
First, I'll tell you my experience with Apiary fund. They have a monthly fee which starts at $97 per month (more on this later).
Apiary has a "Beeline" program. Once you finish all the steps in the Beeline, you are funded. To complete Beeline, you must finish requirements for several levels: Copper, Bronze, Silver, and Gold. They are not difficult, but they attempt to teach Apiary's trading philosophy. Each of these levels has three separate stages. The initial funding is a $1,000 test account.
A little background her about my experience with Apiary: I was a member of Apiary two years ago. They have a full-blown teaching program, but it deals almost exclusively with lagging indicators. Just skip all of their teaching; I found it worthless (except the basic information about FOREX, which is covered quite well).
During my initial two months, I easily completed Copper, Bronze, and Silver. (You can basically automatically pass these levels through some "cheats", which are not discouraged. They are not really cheats, but formula that can be used to automatically pass those levels) However, after reaching Gold (this was two years ago), I recognized that I had not learned anything that would actually help me beat the markets. After searching for REAL training (specifically Supply and Demand training such as PFA), I found none and quit Apiary. If I continued at that point, it would have all been a gamble.
I recently rejoined Apiary (after finding PFA and the confidence that I can beat the markets). I passed Gold 1 and I am currently in Gold 2. Once you pass Gold 2, you are automatically funded. So the requirements that I now need to meet are: 1. More wins than losses in last 100 trades (my current nemesis); 2. average win > average loss (in each of last 100 wins and last 100 losses...I've got this one locked up); 3. positive profit for entire duration of Gold 2 (can be as little as $0.01).
Once you are funded, there are some "rules" to abide by, BUT not NEARLY as unrealistic as those in the other two mentioned programs. For example, you may only lose 2% of your account in one trade. You may only lose 5% of your account in one day (if you lose that much, your trading will be suspended for the rest of the day, but fully enabled the next day). If you do violate the 2% rule (which you should NEVER do...it's easily avoidable), your funding will not be terminated. At worst, you will have a meeting with the "risk manager" to talk it through. If you make repeat violations of this rule, they may terminate your funded account, but you will be able to earn it back after spending more time in a simulated account.
As I said, you would start with test $1,000 account. If you are profitable for two weeks and can sufficiently explain your trading strategy to the risk manager (he doesn't need to "approve" of your trading; he only checks to make sure you are using one and you understand it), he will approve you for a $2,500 account. During the initial funding levels, you keep 60% of your profits. Notice, however, that "big profit" should probably not be your goal early on, because...for every three consecutive months you are profitable (even by $0.01), you will move up in funding level.
The official funding levels are $2,500, $10,000, $25,000, $50,000, $100,000, $250,000. For every three consecutive months you are profitable (even by $0.01), you will move up in funding level.
If you trade very sparsely, you will probably move up more slowly, BUT you will move up; however, there have been people advanced full funding levels immediately. As you move up, your share becomes greater by 5% to a max of 85% profit share.
If you do poorly for a stretch of time, the risk manager will review your trading with you to attempt to find out what may be wrong. However, from what I've read they give ample opportunity for you to correct your mistakes (a violation of the "2% loss per trade" rule is THE most serious violation, but again...it can always be avoided.).
From all that I've read about OneUp Trader and TopStep, they make a LOT of money just based upon the math of their requirements. First, you must (in effect) purchase your account, then hang on to it. The requirements are such that even solid traders have troubles holding onto the accounts.
Apiary is very straightforward. Their Beeline program and risk manager oversight assure them that they will not be funding losing traders (at least not for more than small amounts). In return, they allow winning traders to easily become funded (though it will take a minimum of two months or so).
I mentioned the monthly fee is $97. However, this fee is reduced as you progress through Beeline. My monthly fee is currently $75 (this took me a little under two months to achieve) and reduces to $65 (the minimum) once I complete Gold 2.
So here is my PROS and CONS list:
PROS:
1. (vs. other funding programs
a. lower cost
b. realistic requirements
c. you can DEFINITELY get funded, AND it's easy to see that you can definitely get funded. (by all of the many accounts, they keep their end of the bargain)
2. Easy access to professional traders where you can ask them anything you want. However, if you are looking for a good education, see #4 in CONS. They have a good knowledge of the workings of the FOREX market and might be able to provide some valuable insight, but I wouldn't rely on them for education.
CONS:
1. You must trade FOREX
2. takes a MINIMUM of two years or so to reach the highest funding level ($250,000)
3. They have a proprietary platform that sucks. There are currently some bugs that cause it to go down. However, if your active trades are affected by this, you can contact them and they will credit you
4. (minor) They have an extensive FOREX education program, but most of it is worthless imo. Skip it.
I'm sure I could think of more pros and cons, but these are the big ones.
******************************
I had previously research other funding programs (probably OneUp and TopStep) and I ran across a couple of great threads with hundreds of replies with stories from traders active with these two companies.
The overwhelming consensus was that the math just doesn't work out. It's more like gambling than funding; with the trailing stop and other rules, you are only able to actually use a portion of your account.
One trader in particular traded only oil. This is all he had done for several years before trying out one of the companies. I tried to find that thread, but unfortunately couldn't. He was pretty optimistic at first. And he did get funded a couple of times over a period of months, but due to the rules could not hold on to the accounts. He was simultaneously trading his own account as well, and continued making a good return on that account while making the same trades.
So this is an overview of my Apiary experience. I can say that they are an honest company with a great reputation among its hundreds of members. The only big gripe from many of the members is the aforementioned proprietary trading platform.
If you have any questions, I'd be happy to share.
They also have a 30-day money-back guarantee which I was able to take advantage of even though I'd been a member before.
First, I'll tell you my experience with Apiary fund. They have a monthly fee which starts at $97 per month (more on this later).
Apiary has a "Beeline" program. Once you finish all the steps in the Beeline, you are funded. To complete Beeline, you must finish requirements for several levels: Copper, Bronze, Silver, and Gold. They are not difficult, but they attempt to teach Apiary's trading philosophy. Each of these levels has three separate stages. The initial funding is a $1,000 test account.
A little background her about my experience with Apiary: I was a member of Apiary two years ago. They have a full-blown teaching program, but it deals almost exclusively with lagging indicators. Just skip all of their teaching; I found it worthless (except the basic information about FOREX, which is covered quite well).
During my initial two months, I easily completed Copper, Bronze, and Silver. (You can basically automatically pass these levels through some "cheats", which are not discouraged. They are not really cheats, but formula that can be used to automatically pass those levels) However, after reaching Gold (this was two years ago), I recognized that I had not learned anything that would actually help me beat the markets. After searching for REAL training (specifically Supply and Demand training such as PFA), I found none and quit Apiary. If I continued at that point, it would have all been a gamble.
I recently rejoined Apiary (after finding PFA and the confidence that I can beat the markets). I passed Gold 1 and I am currently in Gold 2. Once you pass Gold 2, you are automatically funded. So the requirements that I now need to meet are: 1. More wins than losses in last 100 trades (my current nemesis); 2. average win > average loss (in each of last 100 wins and last 100 losses...I've got this one locked up); 3. positive profit for entire duration of Gold 2 (can be as little as $0.01).
Once you are funded, there are some "rules" to abide by, BUT not NEARLY as unrealistic as those in the other two mentioned programs. For example, you may only lose 2% of your account in one trade. You may only lose 5% of your account in one day (if you lose that much, your trading will be suspended for the rest of the day, but fully enabled the next day). If you do violate the 2% rule (which you should NEVER do...it's easily avoidable), your funding will not be terminated. At worst, you will have a meeting with the "risk manager" to talk it through. If you make repeat violations of this rule, they may terminate your funded account, but you will be able to earn it back after spending more time in a simulated account.
As I said, you would start with test $1,000 account. If you are profitable for two weeks and can sufficiently explain your trading strategy to the risk manager (he doesn't need to "approve" of your trading; he only checks to make sure you are using one and you understand it), he will approve you for a $2,500 account. During the initial funding levels, you keep 60% of your profits. Notice, however, that "big profit" should probably not be your goal early on, because...for every three consecutive months you are profitable (even by $0.01), you will move up in funding level.
The official funding levels are $2,500, $10,000, $25,000, $50,000, $100,000, $250,000. For every three consecutive months you are profitable (even by $0.01), you will move up in funding level.
If you trade very sparsely, you will probably move up more slowly, BUT you will move up; however, there have been people advanced full funding levels immediately. As you move up, your share becomes greater by 5% to a max of 85% profit share.
If you do poorly for a stretch of time, the risk manager will review your trading with you to attempt to find out what may be wrong. However, from what I've read they give ample opportunity for you to correct your mistakes (a violation of the "2% loss per trade" rule is THE most serious violation, but again...it can always be avoided.).
From all that I've read about OneUp Trader and TopStep, they make a LOT of money just based upon the math of their requirements. First, you must (in effect) purchase your account, then hang on to it. The requirements are such that even solid traders have troubles holding onto the accounts.
Apiary is very straightforward. Their Beeline program and risk manager oversight assure them that they will not be funding losing traders (at least not for more than small amounts). In return, they allow winning traders to easily become funded (though it will take a minimum of two months or so).
I mentioned the monthly fee is $97. However, this fee is reduced as you progress through Beeline. My monthly fee is currently $75 (this took me a little under two months to achieve) and reduces to $65 (the minimum) once I complete Gold 2.
So here is my PROS and CONS list:
PROS:
1. (vs. other funding programs
a. lower cost
b. realistic requirements
c. you can DEFINITELY get funded, AND it's easy to see that you can definitely get funded. (by all of the many accounts, they keep their end of the bargain)
2. Easy access to professional traders where you can ask them anything you want. However, if you are looking for a good education, see #4 in CONS. They have a good knowledge of the workings of the FOREX market and might be able to provide some valuable insight, but I wouldn't rely on them for education.
CONS:
1. You must trade FOREX
2. takes a MINIMUM of two years or so to reach the highest funding level ($250,000)
3. They have a proprietary platform that sucks. There are currently some bugs that cause it to go down. However, if your active trades are affected by this, you can contact them and they will credit you
4. (minor) They have an extensive FOREX education program, but most of it is worthless imo. Skip it.
I'm sure I could think of more pros and cons, but these are the big ones.
******************************
I had previously research other funding programs (probably OneUp and TopStep) and I ran across a couple of great threads with hundreds of replies with stories from traders active with these two companies.
The overwhelming consensus was that the math just doesn't work out. It's more like gambling than funding; with the trailing stop and other rules, you are only able to actually use a portion of your account.
One trader in particular traded only oil. This is all he had done for several years before trying out one of the companies. I tried to find that thread, but unfortunately couldn't. He was pretty optimistic at first. And he did get funded a couple of times over a period of months, but due to the rules could not hold on to the accounts. He was simultaneously trading his own account as well, and continued making a good return on that account while making the same trades.
So this is an overview of my Apiary experience. I can say that they are an honest company with a great reputation among its hundreds of members. The only big gripe from many of the members is the aforementioned proprietary trading platform.
If you have any questions, I'd be happy to share.
They also have a 30-day money-back guarantee which I was able to take advantage of even though I'd been a member before.
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Thank you Travis and John for sharing this information. Very interesting.
I knew about these funding companies but I never gave it any thought until now.
I’m not even sure I’m really interested but how could I know if I don’t dive into it, right?
I saw that OneUp trader allows you to trade futures (which I personally prefer over forex) and also you can use NinjaTrader instead of a crappy propietary platform. That to me it’s an advantage a over Apiary. At least in theory. Funding process also appears to be more straightforward.
Does anybody has any experience with OneUp or any other funding company that allows you to use your own platform and trading system?
Thank you!
I knew about these funding companies but I never gave it any thought until now.
I’m not even sure I’m really interested but how could I know if I don’t dive into it, right?
I saw that OneUp trader allows you to trade futures (which I personally prefer over forex) and also you can use NinjaTrader instead of a crappy propietary platform. That to me it’s an advantage a over Apiary. At least in theory. Funding process also appears to be more straightforward.
Does anybody has any experience with OneUp or any other funding company that allows you to use your own platform and trading system?
Thank you!
Again, I'd caution you against spending money on OneUp or TopStep. There have been extensive threads on the problems with these companies. Funding requirements do seem more straightforward than Apiary, but they really are not. Pay very close attention to the trailing stops that are adjusted at the end of each day. From what I've read, these are extremely hard to avoid.
Apiary's funding requirements are actually very straightforward; yes, they take longer, but all the while you are progressing towards definite funding.
With OneUp or TopStep, you may make several attempts at funding (paying a fee every time, PLUS the monthly fee); once you attain funding, from what I've read it's hard to hold on to.
But if anyone else has personal experience with actually being funded with either of these companies, it'd be great to hear.
I'm hopeful that I will be funded by Apiary within the month. However, another con that I forgot to mention is that Apiary's "Beeline" encourages shorter term and scalp trading. Once you attain funding, though, you can easily use your preferred method.
I, too, would prefer futures trading. But those companies seem to be a money pit.
Apiary's funding requirements are actually very straightforward; yes, they take longer, but all the while you are progressing towards definite funding.
With OneUp or TopStep, you may make several attempts at funding (paying a fee every time, PLUS the monthly fee); once you attain funding, from what I've read it's hard to hold on to.
But if anyone else has personal experience with actually being funded with either of these companies, it'd be great to hear.
I'm hopeful that I will be funded by Apiary within the month. However, another con that I forgot to mention is that Apiary's "Beeline" encourages shorter term and scalp trading. Once you attain funding, though, you can easily use your preferred method.
I, too, would prefer futures trading. But those companies seem to be a money pit.
Thank you very much John for your advice. I really appreciate it and I know what you mean. It’s something to be very careful.
I’ve been reasearching a little bit too and I noticed that most of them have gray areas. Specially when it comes about education.
That’s why it’s so important you shared your story with all of us. Nobody should commit with any of these type of companies if they don’t know what they’re getting into.
I’ve been reasearching a little bit too and I noticed that most of them have gray areas. Specially when it comes about education.
That’s why it’s so important you shared your story with all of us. Nobody should commit with any of these type of companies if they don’t know what they’re getting into.
Thank you for the great info on Apiary. I get emails from them all the time but I'm apprehensive to trade FX as I've heard horror stories about serious issues with brokers manipulating trades. Plus I'm primarily a futures trader and feel there is more than enough trading opportunities with the futures to make me happy
I have tried both OneUp and TopStep to no avail due to the strict trailing stop/drawdown rules. I have come very close several times but break their tight rules at some point even though I trade along with my own account and stay positive. I am starting to think the business model is exactly the way John described it. I initially was seeking the ability to have the capital to hold trades overnight or longer. For now, I'll stick to trading a smaller size until I build up my account the old fashion way, one trade at a time lol
I have tried both OneUp and TopStep to no avail due to the strict trailing stop/drawdown rules. I have come very close several times but break their tight rules at some point even though I trade along with my own account and stay positive. I am starting to think the business model is exactly the way John described it. I initially was seeking the ability to have the capital to hold trades overnight or longer. For now, I'll stick to trading a smaller size until I build up my account the old fashion way, one trade at a time lol
If you think they don’t let you succeed, if their rules are making you fail, that could be their real business.
In my opinion, I’ve heard enough about OneUp and topstep to know I’m not interested in those companies.
Thank you, Luis, for sharing! I would do the same like you, build my own account. But I also think John could be in the right path and it could be a great option as well. I really encourage him to keep going. It looks like he’s doing great. There might be good and bad funding companies. I hope he’s in the right one. It could remove a lot of emotions if you don’t trade your own money. It sounds amazing if you think about it, you could obtain a great amount of capital to trade, you don’t lose any money and you could earn big profits. But of course, if they just want to charge you fees, that’s another story.
Good luck everyone whatever route you choose! With hard work, sooner or later you’ll find your own way.
In my opinion, I’ve heard enough about OneUp and topstep to know I’m not interested in those companies.
Thank you, Luis, for sharing! I would do the same like you, build my own account. But I also think John could be in the right path and it could be a great option as well. I really encourage him to keep going. It looks like he’s doing great. There might be good and bad funding companies. I hope he’s in the right one. It could remove a lot of emotions if you don’t trade your own money. It sounds amazing if you think about it, you could obtain a great amount of capital to trade, you don’t lose any money and you could earn big profits. But of course, if they just want to charge you fees, that’s another story.
Good luck everyone whatever route you choose! With hard work, sooner or later you’ll find your own way.
WOW, Thanks to all of you who have added your comments. Great Information for all of us.
I wanted to add a few things myself, sorry it took me several days to get back to this.
Couldn't of said it better Stephen.
It all comes down to sticking to our own rules day in and day out. I have attempted the combine many times but ill fully admit that its not TST or their rules that are stopping myslef of anyone else from receiving funding, its simply following the methodology ... any and all trading, rather in our own small accounts or one of these of funding programs requires consistent, methodical trading and rest takes care of itself. Waiting for LTF zones and then finding a qualified entry on a STF chart to take a bounce/turn out of that LTF "area." Whos to blame if we take an entry on a STF zone that is in the middle of a range just cause it looks good and it ends up being a loosing trade? Im sure we've all done that at some point.
I made a lot of excuses about why i wasnt getting funded but at the end of the day its myself getting in my own way... breaking one of my own rules, which led to breaking one of theirs. Trying to change our trading style to fit into someone else's rules has been an issue for me when you have to be flat on all positions at end of day. This has forced me to look at smaller time frames which led to the discussion between Will and I in class last week and ultimately to this forum.
May we all find the strength to overcome our bad habits and adopt new and fruitful actions with our trading plans and find success with whatever option we choose. Good luck John, Luis! keep us updated how this goes moving forward. I will as well. cheers!!
I wanted to add a few things myself, sorry it took me several days to get back to this.
I know a guy who a few months ago got TopStep Trader funding for $30K. He simply did not break any of the Step 1 or 2 rules.
I'd be cautious integrating anything negative that's said on "any" forum of mostly beginning, struggling, failing traders who have yet to figure out a successful strategy.
Couldn't of said it better Stephen.
It all comes down to sticking to our own rules day in and day out. I have attempted the combine many times but ill fully admit that its not TST or their rules that are stopping myslef of anyone else from receiving funding, its simply following the methodology ... any and all trading, rather in our own small accounts or one of these of funding programs requires consistent, methodical trading and rest takes care of itself. Waiting for LTF zones and then finding a qualified entry on a STF chart to take a bounce/turn out of that LTF "area." Whos to blame if we take an entry on a STF zone that is in the middle of a range just cause it looks good and it ends up being a loosing trade? Im sure we've all done that at some point.
I made a lot of excuses about why i wasnt getting funded but at the end of the day its myself getting in my own way... breaking one of my own rules, which led to breaking one of theirs. Trying to change our trading style to fit into someone else's rules has been an issue for me when you have to be flat on all positions at end of day. This has forced me to look at smaller time frames which led to the discussion between Will and I in class last week and ultimately to this forum.
May we all find the strength to overcome our bad habits and adopt new and fruitful actions with our trading plans and find success with whatever option we choose. Good luck John, Luis! keep us updated how this goes moving forward. I will as well. cheers!!
Thank you Travis for sharing! It’s great to listen both sides of the story. If the problem is to stick to the plan, I find it a reasonable challenge. Even though it is hard to achieve it, as we all know, it’s absolutely necessary to be a successful trader anyway.
I’m going to take a better look to these companies, I might give it a chance to one othe them. As I said again, the concept itself of these companies sounds promising. Next time I’ll post something if I have first hand information from my own personal experience to share.
The great thing of being part of this community is that we all help each other. At least you’re definitely are helping me to form a better opinion about this topic. Again, thank you all!
I’m going to take a better look to these companies, I might give it a chance to one othe them. As I said again, the concept itself of these companies sounds promising. Next time I’ll post something if I have first hand information from my own personal experience to share.
The great thing of being part of this community is that we all help each other. At least you’re definitely are helping me to form a better opinion about this topic. Again, thank you all!
I’ll keep this short and sweet...
I LOVE THE COMMUNITY!!! So lucky to be part of it with you all!
I’d love to see many more discussions like this. The best thing is how you all are so supportive and truly trying to help each other in a genuine way, a true blessing!!!
I LOVE THE COMMUNITY!!! So lucky to be part of it with you all!
I’d love to see many more discussions like this. The best thing is how you all are so supportive and truly trying to help each other in a genuine way, a true blessing!!!
I found the following interesting information in a book review on Amazon (One Good Trade by Mike Bellafoire):
[T3 is a proprietary trading firm]
The SMB Training website reveals that "SMB is a division of T3 Trading Group, LLC, a CBSX broker dealer." I worked full-time in a non-finance job, and I traded at home during my personal time. I traded stocks, equity options, and forex before I saw SMB Capital on the second season DVD of Wall Street Warriors. About 16 months later, I bought the book One Good Trade on Amazon. One Good Trade made me believe that proprietary traders had an exciting and lucrative career. The book mentions the high failure rate of traders numerous times, but the book gave me the impression that failure was almost always the trader's fault. I decided to work at T3 Trading Group in Miami, and the experience was different than the environment described in One Good Trade. The combination of my experience and the financial statements reveals how T3 Trading Group really works.
The T3 Trading Group Annual Report (Form X-17A-5) can be downloaded from Edgar on the SEC website. In 2012, 99.89 percent of T3 Trading's revenues came from the monthly fees and the trading fees its proprietary traders paid to the company ($15,106,432). Only 0.106 percent of T3 Trading's revenues came from its share of the trading profits ($16,082). T3 Trading charges its traders for every share they trade. Traders are discouraged from trading a low number of shares per trade even if their trades lose a lot of money and even if they are placing the same number of trades.
T3 Trading charged each of my co-workers about $1,000 a month in trading fees. The $1,000 a month does not include the losses from the trades. On some days traders were profitable, but on most days they were not. Many traders are also charged several monthly fees. Total monthly fees can be as low as $120 a month. After one month at T3 Trading, one unprofitable trader was allowed to double the number of shares he traded ($2,000 a month in trading fees). Some traders may have trading profits that will offset some of the trading fees (and monthly fees). My manager told us on several occasions that many traders deposit additional money when the fees and the trading losses deplete their initial $7,500 capital contribution.
Turnover at T3 Trading is high. The Linked In website profile of CEO Sean Hendelman reveals that T3 Trading has more than 400 proprietary trading jobs. My manager told us that it takes 6 months for traders to become profitable at T3 Trading. If the average trader quits T3 Trading in 6 months, then 800 people held those 400 trading jobs in 2012. In 2012, each of those 800 traders paid T3 Trading $18,883 in monthly fees and trading fees. Some traders may have trading profits that will offset some of the trading fees (and monthly fees).
What are the odds of being a successful trader at T3 Trading Group? In 2012, all of the traders at T3 Trading had $53,607 in trading profits. The traders' share was $37,525 (70%), and T3 Trading's share was $16,082 (30%). It is possible that 799 out of 800 traders received nothing, and one trader received $37,525. It is possible that 798 out of 800 traders received nothing, and two traders received $18,762.50 each (the equivalent of a $9.38 per hour full-time job). It is possible that the top one percent of the 800 traders received $4,690.62 each, and the remaining 792 traders received nothing. No wonder most traders resign in a short period of time.
The T3 Trading website reveals why revenues from the paid training products are not on the T3 Trading Group Annual Report: "T3 Live and T3 Trading Group, LLC are separate, but affiliated companies through common ownership." The T3 Live website advertises two courses that cost $1,997 each. The Virtual Trading Floor costs $200 a month. T3 Live has many paid products. I never purchased any T3 Live training products. My manager's free training classes were vague. My manager's free training materials were skimpy. About two months after I resigned from T3 Trading, T3 Live sent me an email that offered me a yearly subscription to the Virtual Trading Floor for $999.50. I was also offered a package of one course (I had three choices) and one year of private mentoring for $1,199.
There may be proprietary trading firms that offer its traders an exciting and lucrative career. My description of T3 Trading is meant to help people avoid a situation where the fees the traders pay to the company are more important than the profit the traders make. I worked at T3 Trading for only two months, and each of my co-workers traded five times as many shares as I did. One day, I plan on reading One Good Trade again, and I plan on watching SMB Capital on Wall Street Warriors again. Reading the book and watching the DVD will be more interesting to me now that I have experience as a proprietary trader
[T3 is a proprietary trading firm]
The SMB Training website reveals that "SMB is a division of T3 Trading Group, LLC, a CBSX broker dealer." I worked full-time in a non-finance job, and I traded at home during my personal time. I traded stocks, equity options, and forex before I saw SMB Capital on the second season DVD of Wall Street Warriors. About 16 months later, I bought the book One Good Trade on Amazon. One Good Trade made me believe that proprietary traders had an exciting and lucrative career. The book mentions the high failure rate of traders numerous times, but the book gave me the impression that failure was almost always the trader's fault. I decided to work at T3 Trading Group in Miami, and the experience was different than the environment described in One Good Trade. The combination of my experience and the financial statements reveals how T3 Trading Group really works.
The T3 Trading Group Annual Report (Form X-17A-5) can be downloaded from Edgar on the SEC website. In 2012, 99.89 percent of T3 Trading's revenues came from the monthly fees and the trading fees its proprietary traders paid to the company ($15,106,432). Only 0.106 percent of T3 Trading's revenues came from its share of the trading profits ($16,082). T3 Trading charges its traders for every share they trade. Traders are discouraged from trading a low number of shares per trade even if their trades lose a lot of money and even if they are placing the same number of trades.
T3 Trading charged each of my co-workers about $1,000 a month in trading fees. The $1,000 a month does not include the losses from the trades. On some days traders were profitable, but on most days they were not. Many traders are also charged several monthly fees. Total monthly fees can be as low as $120 a month. After one month at T3 Trading, one unprofitable trader was allowed to double the number of shares he traded ($2,000 a month in trading fees). Some traders may have trading profits that will offset some of the trading fees (and monthly fees). My manager told us on several occasions that many traders deposit additional money when the fees and the trading losses deplete their initial $7,500 capital contribution.
Turnover at T3 Trading is high. The Linked In website profile of CEO Sean Hendelman reveals that T3 Trading has more than 400 proprietary trading jobs. My manager told us that it takes 6 months for traders to become profitable at T3 Trading. If the average trader quits T3 Trading in 6 months, then 800 people held those 400 trading jobs in 2012. In 2012, each of those 800 traders paid T3 Trading $18,883 in monthly fees and trading fees. Some traders may have trading profits that will offset some of the trading fees (and monthly fees).
What are the odds of being a successful trader at T3 Trading Group? In 2012, all of the traders at T3 Trading had $53,607 in trading profits. The traders' share was $37,525 (70%), and T3 Trading's share was $16,082 (30%). It is possible that 799 out of 800 traders received nothing, and one trader received $37,525. It is possible that 798 out of 800 traders received nothing, and two traders received $18,762.50 each (the equivalent of a $9.38 per hour full-time job). It is possible that the top one percent of the 800 traders received $4,690.62 each, and the remaining 792 traders received nothing. No wonder most traders resign in a short period of time.
The T3 Trading website reveals why revenues from the paid training products are not on the T3 Trading Group Annual Report: "T3 Live and T3 Trading Group, LLC are separate, but affiliated companies through common ownership." The T3 Live website advertises two courses that cost $1,997 each. The Virtual Trading Floor costs $200 a month. T3 Live has many paid products. I never purchased any T3 Live training products. My manager's free training classes were vague. My manager's free training materials were skimpy. About two months after I resigned from T3 Trading, T3 Live sent me an email that offered me a yearly subscription to the Virtual Trading Floor for $999.50. I was also offered a package of one course (I had three choices) and one year of private mentoring for $1,199.
There may be proprietary trading firms that offer its traders an exciting and lucrative career. My description of T3 Trading is meant to help people avoid a situation where the fees the traders pay to the company are more important than the profit the traders make. I worked at T3 Trading for only two months, and each of my co-workers traded five times as many shares as I did. One day, I plan on reading One Good Trade again, and I plan on watching SMB Capital on Wall Street Warriors again. Reading the book and watching the DVD will be more interesting to me now that I have experience as a proprietary trader
Hello All,
I just initiate a post with this same subjet and Sebastian Molte333 give me this link. AWESOME guy !
Please Travis stephen92109 Luis JohnM68 MattiasTrader , may I ask you where are you in your process ?
I known TopStep, OneUp (for bad things too) and Apiary (don't have a return before you).
I saw SMB Futures too (which looks great and I had a conversation via email with a "coach" whom reply very rapidly and was very pro). I asked him if a remote prop trader wants to trade in HQ in NYC possible in order to meet others ? His reply was yes.
I just see a new one : Savius LLC with is very affordable and you can enter with good track record.
May I have your advice please ?
Thank a lot.
Take care.
Michael.
I just initiate a post with this same subjet and Sebastian Molte333 give me this link. AWESOME guy !
Please Travis stephen92109 Luis JohnM68 MattiasTrader , may I ask you where are you in your process ?
I known TopStep, OneUp (for bad things too) and Apiary (don't have a return before you).
I saw SMB Futures too (which looks great and I had a conversation via email with a "coach" whom reply very rapidly and was very pro). I asked him if a remote prop trader wants to trade in HQ in NYC possible in order to meet others ? His reply was yes.
I just see a new one : Savius LLC with is very affordable and you can enter with good track record.
May I have your advice please ?
Thank a lot.
Take care.
Michael.
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