Making this post to continue the discussion from the live room a few of us were having about the option of trading other peoples money. Luis mentions Topstep Trader (TST) and OneUp trader.
There are many Pros and Cons with these companies out there as I have much personal experience with TST. John, you also mentioned a FX program with Apiary.
Interested to hear about these various programs that you guys have heard of and have experience with...any pros and cons you'd like to share.
Personally, I've attempted several combines with TST to no avail even though I've been very very close to hitting the profit targets on multiple occasions but end up breaking one of their rules and being disqualified.
I want to look at these other programs you guys have brought to my attention as well as look at some of the issues ive been running into with TST. More to come in this post but cheers for now.
..........
-
Travis
-
- General Discussion
- Wednesday, 07 November 2018
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Thanks for starting this thread Travis.
First, I'll tell you my experience with Apiary fund. They have a monthly fee which starts at $97 per month (more on this later).
Apiary has a "Beeline" program. Once you finish all the steps in the Beeline, you are funded. To complete Beeline, you must finish requirements for several levels: Copper, Bronze, Silver, and Gold. They are not difficult, but they attempt to teach Apiary's trading philosophy. Each of these levels has three separate stages. The initial funding is a $1,000 test account.
A little background her about my experience with Apiary: I was a member of Apiary two years ago. They have a full-blown teaching program, but it deals almost exclusively with lagging indicators. Just skip all of their teaching; I found it worthless (except the basic information about FOREX, which is covered quite well).
During my initial two months, I easily completed Copper, Bronze, and Silver. (You can basically automatically pass these levels through some "cheats", which are not discouraged. They are not really cheats, but formula that can be used to automatically pass those levels) However, after reaching Gold (this was two years ago), I recognized that I had not learned anything that would actually help me beat the markets. After searching for REAL training (specifically Supply and Demand training such as PFA), I found none and quit Apiary. If I continued at that point, it would have all been a gamble.
I recently rejoined Apiary (after finding PFA and the confidence that I can beat the markets). I passed Gold 1 and I am currently in Gold 2. Once you pass Gold 2, you are automatically funded. So the requirements that I now need to meet are: 1. More wins than losses in last 100 trades (my current nemesis); 2. average win > average loss (in each of last 100 wins and last 100 losses...I've got this one locked up); 3. positive profit for entire duration of Gold 2 (can be as little as $0.01).
Once you are funded, there are some "rules" to abide by, BUT not NEARLY as unrealistic as those in the other two mentioned programs. For example, you may only lose 2% of your account in one trade. You may only lose 5% of your account in one day (if you lose that much, your trading will be suspended for the rest of the day, but fully enabled the next day). If you do violate the 2% rule (which you should NEVER do...it's easily avoidable), your funding will not be terminated. At worst, you will have a meeting with the "risk manager" to talk it through. If you make repeat violations of this rule, they may terminate your funded account, but you will be able to earn it back after spending more time in a simulated account.
As I said, you would start with test $1,000 account. If you are profitable for two weeks and can sufficiently explain your trading strategy to the risk manager (he doesn't need to "approve" of your trading; he only checks to make sure you are using one and you understand it), he will approve you for a $2,500 account. During the initial funding levels, you keep 60% of your profits. Notice, however, that "big profit" should probably not be your goal early on, because...for every three consecutive months you are profitable (even by $0.01), you will move up in funding level.
The official funding levels are $2,500, $10,000, $25,000, $50,000, $100,000, $250,000. For every three consecutive months you are profitable (even by $0.01), you will move up in funding level.
If you trade very sparsely, you will probably move up more slowly, BUT you will move up; however, there have been people advanced full funding levels immediately. As you move up, your share becomes greater by 5% to a max of 85% profit share.
If you do poorly for a stretch of time, the risk manager will review your trading with you to attempt to find out what may be wrong. However, from what I've read they give ample opportunity for you to correct your mistakes (a violation of the "2% loss per trade" rule is THE most serious violation, but again...it can always be avoided.).
From all that I've read about OneUp Trader and TopStep, they make a LOT of money just based upon the math of their requirements. First, you must (in effect) purchase your account, then hang on to it. The requirements are such that even solid traders have troubles holding onto the accounts.
Apiary is very straightforward. Their Beeline program and risk manager oversight assure them that they will not be funding losing traders (at least not for more than small amounts). In return, they allow winning traders to easily become funded (though it will take a minimum of two months or so).
I mentioned the monthly fee is $97. However, this fee is reduced as you progress through Beeline. My monthly fee is currently $75 (this took me a little under two months to achieve) and reduces to $65 (the minimum) once I complete Gold 2.
So here is my PROS and CONS list:
PROS:
1. (vs. other funding programs
a. lower cost
b. realistic requirements
c. you can DEFINITELY get funded, AND it's easy to see that you can definitely get funded. (by all of the many accounts, they keep their end of the bargain)
2. Easy access to professional traders where you can ask them anything you want. However, if you are looking for a good education, see #4 in CONS. They have a good knowledge of the workings of the FOREX market and might be able to provide some valuable insight, but I wouldn't rely on them for education.
CONS:
1. You must trade FOREX
2. takes a MINIMUM of two years or so to reach the highest funding level ($250,000)
3. They have a proprietary platform that sucks. There are currently some bugs that cause it to go down. However, if your active trades are affected by this, you can contact them and they will credit you
4. (minor) They have an extensive FOREX education program, but most of it is worthless imo. Skip it.
I'm sure I could think of more pros and cons, but these are the big ones.
******************************
I had previously research other funding programs (probably OneUp and TopStep) and I ran across a couple of great threads with hundreds of replies with stories from traders active with these two companies.
The overwhelming consensus was that the math just doesn't work out. It's more like gambling than funding; with the trailing stop and other rules, you are only able to actually use a portion of your account.
One trader in particular traded only oil. This is all he had done for several years before trying out one of the companies. I tried to find that thread, but unfortunately couldn't. He was pretty optimistic at first. And he did get funded a couple of times over a period of months, but due to the rules could not hold on to the accounts. He was simultaneously trading his own account as well, and continued making a good return on that account while making the same trades.
So this is an overview of my Apiary experience. I can say that they are an honest company with a great reputation among its hundreds of members. The only big gripe from many of the members is the aforementioned proprietary trading platform.
If you have any questions, I'd be happy to share.
They also have a 30-day money-back guarantee which I was able to take advantage of even though I'd been a member before.
First, I'll tell you my experience with Apiary fund. They have a monthly fee which starts at $97 per month (more on this later).
Apiary has a "Beeline" program. Once you finish all the steps in the Beeline, you are funded. To complete Beeline, you must finish requirements for several levels: Copper, Bronze, Silver, and Gold. They are not difficult, but they attempt to teach Apiary's trading philosophy. Each of these levels has three separate stages. The initial funding is a $1,000 test account.
A little background her about my experience with Apiary: I was a member of Apiary two years ago. They have a full-blown teaching program, but it deals almost exclusively with lagging indicators. Just skip all of their teaching; I found it worthless (except the basic information about FOREX, which is covered quite well).
During my initial two months, I easily completed Copper, Bronze, and Silver. (You can basically automatically pass these levels through some "cheats", which are not discouraged. They are not really cheats, but formula that can be used to automatically pass those levels) However, after reaching Gold (this was two years ago), I recognized that I had not learned anything that would actually help me beat the markets. After searching for REAL training (specifically Supply and Demand training such as PFA), I found none and quit Apiary. If I continued at that point, it would have all been a gamble.
I recently rejoined Apiary (after finding PFA and the confidence that I can beat the markets). I passed Gold 1 and I am currently in Gold 2. Once you pass Gold 2, you are automatically funded. So the requirements that I now need to meet are: 1. More wins than losses in last 100 trades (my current nemesis); 2. average win > average loss (in each of last 100 wins and last 100 losses...I've got this one locked up); 3. positive profit for entire duration of Gold 2 (can be as little as $0.01).
Once you are funded, there are some "rules" to abide by, BUT not NEARLY as unrealistic as those in the other two mentioned programs. For example, you may only lose 2% of your account in one trade. You may only lose 5% of your account in one day (if you lose that much, your trading will be suspended for the rest of the day, but fully enabled the next day). If you do violate the 2% rule (which you should NEVER do...it's easily avoidable), your funding will not be terminated. At worst, you will have a meeting with the "risk manager" to talk it through. If you make repeat violations of this rule, they may terminate your funded account, but you will be able to earn it back after spending more time in a simulated account.
As I said, you would start with test $1,000 account. If you are profitable for two weeks and can sufficiently explain your trading strategy to the risk manager (he doesn't need to "approve" of your trading; he only checks to make sure you are using one and you understand it), he will approve you for a $2,500 account. During the initial funding levels, you keep 60% of your profits. Notice, however, that "big profit" should probably not be your goal early on, because...for every three consecutive months you are profitable (even by $0.01), you will move up in funding level.
The official funding levels are $2,500, $10,000, $25,000, $50,000, $100,000, $250,000. For every three consecutive months you are profitable (even by $0.01), you will move up in funding level.
If you trade very sparsely, you will probably move up more slowly, BUT you will move up; however, there have been people advanced full funding levels immediately. As you move up, your share becomes greater by 5% to a max of 85% profit share.
If you do poorly for a stretch of time, the risk manager will review your trading with you to attempt to find out what may be wrong. However, from what I've read they give ample opportunity for you to correct your mistakes (a violation of the "2% loss per trade" rule is THE most serious violation, but again...it can always be avoided.).
From all that I've read about OneUp Trader and TopStep, they make a LOT of money just based upon the math of their requirements. First, you must (in effect) purchase your account, then hang on to it. The requirements are such that even solid traders have troubles holding onto the accounts.
Apiary is very straightforward. Their Beeline program and risk manager oversight assure them that they will not be funding losing traders (at least not for more than small amounts). In return, they allow winning traders to easily become funded (though it will take a minimum of two months or so).
I mentioned the monthly fee is $97. However, this fee is reduced as you progress through Beeline. My monthly fee is currently $75 (this took me a little under two months to achieve) and reduces to $65 (the minimum) once I complete Gold 2.
So here is my PROS and CONS list:
PROS:
1. (vs. other funding programs
a. lower cost
b. realistic requirements
c. you can DEFINITELY get funded, AND it's easy to see that you can definitely get funded. (by all of the many accounts, they keep their end of the bargain)
2. Easy access to professional traders where you can ask them anything you want. However, if you are looking for a good education, see #4 in CONS. They have a good knowledge of the workings of the FOREX market and might be able to provide some valuable insight, but I wouldn't rely on them for education.
CONS:
1. You must trade FOREX
2. takes a MINIMUM of two years or so to reach the highest funding level ($250,000)
3. They have a proprietary platform that sucks. There are currently some bugs that cause it to go down. However, if your active trades are affected by this, you can contact them and they will credit you
4. (minor) They have an extensive FOREX education program, but most of it is worthless imo. Skip it.
I'm sure I could think of more pros and cons, but these are the big ones.
******************************
I had previously research other funding programs (probably OneUp and TopStep) and I ran across a couple of great threads with hundreds of replies with stories from traders active with these two companies.
The overwhelming consensus was that the math just doesn't work out. It's more like gambling than funding; with the trailing stop and other rules, you are only able to actually use a portion of your account.
One trader in particular traded only oil. This is all he had done for several years before trying out one of the companies. I tried to find that thread, but unfortunately couldn't. He was pretty optimistic at first. And he did get funded a couple of times over a period of months, but due to the rules could not hold on to the accounts. He was simultaneously trading his own account as well, and continued making a good return on that account while making the same trades.
So this is an overview of my Apiary experience. I can say that they are an honest company with a great reputation among its hundreds of members. The only big gripe from many of the members is the aforementioned proprietary trading platform.
If you have any questions, I'd be happy to share.
They also have a 30-day money-back guarantee which I was able to take advantage of even though I'd been a member before.
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That is a very good point and why it’s so important when you and everybody else share your experience, it helps other to have a better perspective. If everyone says that the rules are crazy, it makes you think they don’t want you to succeed. But if someone says hey, if you stick to the plan you can make it, well that’s a different story. So thank you very much for sharing!
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I’m personally trying oneup, I’m just in the free trial taking a look of how it is only. The rules seems very simple, you just have to be consistent and manage risk in a way that makes sense. You can trade futures in NT using PFA zone suite. For me that makes a huge difference. The only thing I l’ve noticed is that is better to not let the positions run because you have to be consistent in how much you make per transaction. I find very simple to follow those rules anyway. I just traded a few days so far but nothing to be scare about. I don’t know if I want to get funded but if I decide so, I feel very confident that i could achieve it in a very short period of time. Now, if they do what they promise, I still don’t have enough experience to talk about that.
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Please do not post links or contact information directly on the forum.
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- stephen92109
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You have my permission to share my email those who are interested in receiving the link.
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